very lean at WOT

HotrodHans · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: very lean at WOT

Hey, new guy here but running E-motive stuff since 94 when the blend was a pot you turned on a TEC 2. Worked great.

. Sure is a nice forum.

Maybe someone can help on this 3.5.6 (TEC3R)

The Wizard says run a 5.994 UAP and zero POT.

I can get the car running great with POT and UAP cruising around, I've gone as far as -2 POT with an 8 or 9 UAP and maintain AF ratios between 10 and 15 from cruise to 3/4 throttle. As soon as i go wide open it hits 17-1 AFR in any of the 3 gears. The converter stalls over 5000 RPM so I'm always in the upper RPM band to 8000 when i hit it.. I've added fuel in the VE (50%) at the top 3 rows and same thing. I added also in the Staged Pulse width table the same numbers...same problem..not sure what that does anyway.

I haven't data logged anything as I'm trying to get the basics going..UAP & POT.

Timing is 24 base to 30 WOT (big cam 284@.050, .670 lift)

EOG is OFF, using a PLX wideband and guage for readout. No feedback to the TEC. tuning manually.

I'm making about 680HP on a SB Mopar NA, (in a 31 Ford 2Door sedan)
pump gas.
Using 1600 CFM air door (4 barrel)
55 lb injectors (tested and flowed)
45 PSI fuel pressure with a Bosch 800HP fuelpump, new filters. (big ones)
I can't see the guage in the car but have run this setup with a BG carb with TEC3r and run 9.60 @ 140.
I'm assuming the fuel delivery is OK for now.

I don't think the oversized air door is the problem as the engine should take what it needs.

Is my ACE 8 and 9 the problem? They're at .25 and zero respectively the way they came programmed.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

John

TimZ · Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: very lean at WOT

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

Could you tell me what your engine displacement is? Your staged pulse width will only be effective if you are using a second set of staged injectors so this wont do anything. Calculating for a 400 CI engine you would need closer to 10 ms UAP to hit 8000 RPM. This would net a %70 ish duty cycle which would be safe.

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:45 am Post subject:

Hi TIMZ,

According to EMI all I should need is a 51# injector for 680HP. Went to the track yesterday and had another set of eyes looking at the program he mentioned I should have the injector set to 4 amp. it defaults to 2 amp peak. (on the WIZARD page) He said the injectors won't open at a higher RPM. Seems that's what it may be doing.

These are Siemens #3102 injectors that EMI sells.. I switched to 4 amps, it ran but didn't get to test it. I'll try and do that today.

Any thoughts on that?

Thanks,

John

**********************************************************************

Hi Blaine,

408 CI.

When I say 8000, that's where the Rev limiter is set. Max power is round 72-7500.

I'm guessing max torque is about 5500. I need to get one of those G-TECs.

If I ran a 10 UAP, I'd probably need a -3+ POT. After all these years i THOUGHT IT WOULD BE EASY. With a 6 UAP and zero pot it cruises around in the 13-14 AFR range and seems happy with it...but anything close to wide open it's the Sahara desert...DRY!

Another problem I'm thinking is possibly the 3.5.6 download (upgrade from 3.4.1)

Now the fuel pump kicks on and off when the key is on (set to 8 seconds) and sometimes stays on with the engine off. Never did that before. Also it downloads to the TEC twice sometimes and gives an error code.

Maybe i should reinstall the firmware again. Is there a glitch in the 3.5.6 and that's why they're going for version 4?

The problem I had with V 3.4.1 was it ran only four cylinders occasionally. Restart the car and it would be OK.

Thanks,

John

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

That 2 amp injector peak setting could definitely be causing an issue especially where there isnt as much time for injector opening like 7500 RPM. Let us know how it works. I have the purple box TEC3 so have never used that setting. Good luck.

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject:

Zowee, I guess that's the problem. It needed the 4amp peak setting.

Back to IOT/TOG playing. It seems I may be going to a large negative POT and high TOG(UAP) to get somewhat of a linear fuel curve as having it set at -.250 and an 8 TOG really ran fat till wide open..6 was way lean. Big jump in numbers as i was staying ahead of traffic while changing it. Rolling Eyes

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to keep it lean and add fuel at the top (VE table WOT) or not.

I still have the fuel pump cycling on and off problem with the key on motor off. The EOG, time off pulse width, tach on the monitor screen jumps around when the pump kicks in.

thanks for your input guys.

John

edit: Well, like a typical guy I read the book after and found the setting should have been at 4 amp peak so I can't complain to EMI.
Well, that's the first time I was wrong in 58 years, maybe the second. Laughing

We don't need no stinky instructions, right?
Seems to me the old TEC1 and 2's defaulted to 4 amp peak but that might be the third time I was wrong.
Embarassed

TimZ · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:

HotrodHans · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:

Hey, a pain in the ass? Definitely not. I'm not a know it all although my wife thinks I am. I already wasted one good motor on this setup.
You make an excellent point. It seems on the wizard page your VE table setting is reflected in the max injector on time column but I haven't double checked that

I've reset the VE to 10 percent in the top 3 rows for a little safety. Fortunately I can see immediately on the W/B AFR meter on the dash if it's going lean. Wish i had that tool years ago. Those big digital numbers are much easier to see than the monitor screen.

That's a hint UWE Very Happy

I'm going to start from scratch with the blend off and using the wizard setting of 0 and 5.994 with the 10% in the VE.

With the POT at -.250 and UAP at 6.2, I was taking out over 20% in the idle and low speed area and still lean at the top. Blend is at 80 giving me about a 50% MAP.

Even though the literature I've read says a radical motor likes a much lower AFR at idle and low speed, mines seems to like around 14.

Keeps me from getting headaches too. This new blended gas isn't compatible with me.

Thanks for the headsup TIMZ and feel free at anytime sharing your thoughts. The guy i sold a TEC 2 to is the one who noticed the injector peak amp setting was wrong, and i told him he was FOS,

wellll.... Crow don't taste like chicken.

HotrodHans · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:59 am Post subject:

Well, ain't quite there. got it down to 14-1 WOT from 17....way too lean yet, but has a lot more power.

Played with different VE numbers. Kept adding at the top but kept it under the max allowable uap. It seems though these numbers don't correlate. My injector duty cycle was only 55-60% at WOT at 6000rpm+ the map hardly gets over 90 and even goes down in some areas in the upper rpm area with WOT.. Seems when you add more fuel the map tends to stay up and climb

I'm using a 1600 cfm air door (4 - 2" holes) and 3.5" exhaust thru dynomax race mufflers..really no restriction.

I guess i need to add more fuel but if i use the WIZARD UAP and POT it's rich at the bottom and real lean at the top. If i lower the POT and increase the UAP just under the max allowable in the space shown above it's still lean.

I'm lost.

I want my SuperBlend back..lol.

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

Im still thinking you need around 10 UAP and a larger offset. Id rather start rich and take fuel out than the other way around. Are these results with the blend completely zeroed out? A bad setting in the TPS voltage offset could cause something like this. Also in the fuel table what does it show as the commanded pulsewidth at the highest MAP/RPM cell?

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:06 am Post subject:

it says 7.67 which is about 95%. Blend is about 80 till 3000 and drops. Voltage is default at .77
A 10 uap? I would need to drop to around -3+ then. Right? My max allowable TOG then is about 10.1 according to the wizard.

HotrodHans · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:10 am Post subject:

try to load a datalog here.

try again.

well, that doesn't work.

Goodnite for now.

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

That would certainly help. Im not sure if this was answered or if I missed it but is the engine and TEC setup for phased or full sequential? The numbers seem to match up with phased. In that case 5.99 UAP and 0 POT should be just fine if even a bit rich at WOT. I just realized the 10 UAP I gave you was for a full sequential setup. Whats the MAP reading at idle? If you can get that log posted you might want to post your bin as well. The more I think about it the less sense it makes. I have probably edited this post 6 times by now Very Happy

. When it leans out what is the primary injector on time at? Might be an idea to run an output from the PLX to the TEC just for datalogging purposes. Anyhow I gotta go to bed too before my head explodes.

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:12 am Post subject:

Hi Blaine,
phased sequential.

My map only goes up to about 90 and starts to drop as the rpms climb to the 70's and bounce around.
I can't upload the DAT file. In the type of attachment link it doesn't have a DAT file as one of the file types to upload..what the heck?
How do I upload the file?

Do I convert it somehow?

I hit the browse, attach the file, upload the attachment and nothing shows up.

Long day today, try to be back on tomorrow morning.

Thanks,
John

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

John,
I sent you a PM with my email if you want to try and send it that way.

Blaine