very lean at WOT

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

The water pump has pretty much the same load on it all the time, so the amount of noise it makes is fairly constant. Often times, the noise it makes is only enough to mess with startup and won't effect the system once the engine is running because the crank signal is stronger while running than while starting.

I don't know that the 1/2" sensor is more resistant to noise than the 3/8" sensor. The closed face on the 1/2" sensor might make it a little better, but I doubt that it makes that much difference.

Fuzzy lines on your datalog are more likely because you have a big engine with a lot of power that is rather solidly mounted. It's going to vibrate a lot. That's more than likely the fuzziness you're seeing in the sensor charts. It could also be some small resistance in the sensor ground connection.
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HotrodHans · Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject:

Got my RF interference again. turned off the blend and she idles around 85 (80-90), but very erratic. Had to go -1.7 on the pot to get a 13-13.5 AFR. and idle somewhat decent. As I gave it a little gas the KPA dropped to 70 (wrong way) Didn't get much time to play with it as it was late and the mufflers are loud.

went back to a 85% blend, gave me a nice steady 50KPA idle. Response was nice.

My idle motor seems to keep opening up but it's disconnected. May just plug the hole. I'm not sure I understand the new version idle settings. The old version seemed to work OK for me.

Haven't had much time to play because of money requirements for FOOD ( work) ..LOL.

Try again today or tomorrow.

Anyone running with the blend off with a radical cam? (268/274 @ .050, .670 lift, 108) in a 408 SB on the street?

I checked the valvetrain as you mentioned Blaine, all seems OK. Cylinder leakdown was at less than 5%. Plugs are black but there is a shiny spot on all of them where it's firing.

Gotta change the crank sensor before i try it again.
Later.

HotrodHans · Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:29 am Post subject:

Hey Jon,

Yeah the engines mounted in urethane bushings so it probably is somewhat solidly mounted I guess. Didn't see your post as I didn't know we were on page 3.....hey let's go for a record...LOL.

I've never really had a sensor problem on this motor, I think this stuff (my other sensors) are at least 10 years old....but I'm going to change it again to the other one I have. If it doesn't suppress it, it's the Campbell Soup can time.

After running it last night the fan motor may have some effect on it as both the water pump and fan were running but I didn't really have much time to test.

Hey, still RAINING Sad

and work tomorrow. I was gonna drive it to Kalamazoo Street Rod nat's this weekend but...............

Hey, Goodguys in Joliet next week.

I met Dave (?), Al's son there many years ago. I had the 41 Merc with the tuned port manifold off of the Vector W2 car on it back then on display when E-motive was on the road.

Good old days.

Let's get 'em back. Very Happy

John

MAYBE SUNDAY Very Happy

HotrodHans · Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:56 am Post subject:

Maybe not this Sunday, unbelieveable amount of rain in the midwest here from the hurricane aftermath. Hope everyone is OK.

TimZ · Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:57 am Post subject:

HotrodHans · Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject:

Hi TIMZ,

Yes it's noise to the crank trigger. That's interesting info you wrote. Maybe that's why when I changed the sensor it stopped the noise. I'll try it at first opportunity.

Thanks much.

John

HotrodHans · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

Took a little trip yesterday to the Goodguys show in Joliet, well, tried too.

Broke a rocker arm (exhaust) on the tollway. 3000 rpm cruise. No hot doggin' it. FIGURES!

I think it's time for T&D or Jesel with my setup.

Turned the sensor as you said TIMZ and it worked at least it has so far.

WOT is still lean, even with the new map sensor. Didn't data log the trip. Played with the UAP and POT, and get 14-14.5 idle
@ -.625 and a 5.6 UAP but it gets fat (12) around 3000 rpm light cruise. Part throttle acceleration goes 14.5 to 15 area.
Give it a quick blast and it goes 12 but comes back up lean.

It's gotta be in the UAP/POT spread i guess. I may try a lot of blend higher up the RPM scale and use TPS signal just to see what happens

HotrodHans · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:24 am Post subject:

Maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree.

I'm trying to get an idle around 13.5-14 AFR with a wide open around 12.5. I'd like to use these as my IOT/UAP and add and subtract as needed around those numbers, as long as my idle and cruise are within limits. that should be my limp home mode.

Is this wrong?

Maybe i should be trying for a 14 idle with around 13, 13.5 at a little over half throttle and add fuel at the top.

It looks like that's what I may have to do as I cannot get a nice 13.5-14 cruise and a 14 idle and get a WOT around 12.5. Best I can get is 14.5 WOT. This is trying with the VE table at zero.

There's no linearity that i can see.

What do you guys do?

thanks.

John

ps. got my nuisance RFI back again. After reading your suggestion TIMZ I realize I did the 90 degree wrong. I turned the sensor 90 degrees in the housing...lol.

I'll need to make a new bracket.

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

Jon,
Sorry to hear about your rocker on the way up. I hope it didnt put too much of a damper on your weekend. Im sure there was plenty else to do at the show. I am using the T&D shaft mount setup and quite like it. The car has been to 7300 with no problems at all. I dont see a problem with setting up your UAP and IOT for idle and light cruise. These are the first to tune anyway. I hope you get that RF issue sorted out. Wish I could help you with that but im stumped.

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:47 am Post subject:

Blaine,

Biggest prob was having to much coffee before we hit the road. Standing out in the middle of nowhere with no tree in site is the damper..LOL.

I'll need to make a new bracket for the p/u sensor as TIMZ explained. I just loosened the clamp and spun the sensor 90 degrees. It worked for a bit. He said to point the sensor forward or rearward instead of straight down at it.

T&D requires pushrod oiling as I understand it and would require engine disassembly. Drilling into the lifter bushing to get more oil would require thorough cleaning. MOPAR shaft rockers get their oiling thru a passage from the lifter bores up thru the block and heads. I've never had an oiling problem with this stock setup even at high rpms.

The rocker arm just gave up as I couldn't see anything else wrong. 8 grand burnouts just aren't in those rockers genes.

That Pantera is sweet and with those turbo's ya sure don't need rpm's. I luv to hear a V8 screaming at 9 grand but that gets expensive.

I think I'll just have to do as you suggested.

Do you add fuel at the top? or run a higher UAP/TOG and subtract in the VE table?

I've been adding UAP and subtracting POT but it doesn't seem to make a difference as long as I keep about a 6 UAP (what the WIZARD calculated) differential.

As soon as I add UAP it's better at the top but no idle quality, go negative on the POT and it's lean again at the top.

I understand that's what the VE table is for but i thought I could get it closer without it. The camshaft definitely is the culprit here.
IMO.

My MAP hardly changes at the lower RPMS and load but I can get it to run really nice with good AFR's as long as I keep my foot out of it.

I guess I have to hook up the O2 feedback but I should be able to do it without it.

John

PanteraTurbo · Stage 2 Joined: 17 Apr 2008 Posts: 58

I usually try to alter my UAP and POT until my AFR's at idle are close to what they should be. Then I go for a drive and make sure the AFR's are somewhat close under cruise and medium load. You dont have to be bang on with the AFR's but the closer you get them with the UAP and POT the less you have to monkey with the VE table. +- 50% is a large range of tuneability with the VE table. It would be tough to be so far out on your UAP that it couldnt be tuned out on the VE. I was lucky with my car as the VE seems to be somewhat linear. Just a quick question, when you decrease your POT have you been increasing your UAP by the same amount. POT has a direct affect on UAP. If your car was running well at full load before you subtracted from the POT you need to add the same amount to the UAP as you subtracted from the UAP. For example previous setup 6 UAP and 0 POT change the POT to -2 you must change the UAP to 8 to get the same amount of fuel at the top end. You might have already known this but its the only reason I can think of that you go lean in the top end after you change your POT.

Blaine

HotrodHans · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:58 am Post subject:

Yup, being doing that for years when it was IOT/TOG. Never had a problem till this little puppy.. Just seems this motor has no linearity too it. Idle too about 2/3rds throttle is easy to tune (that's because the 5000 stall hangs around 3000 when I'm on the throttle just enough to keep it there as I accelerate) but WOT AFR only drops to about 14-14.5 and there definitely is no power.

So, is it recommended I add fuel in the VE at the upper MAP range (80 and up) or do I get the UAP set so it's around 12.5 at WOT, which I haven't been able to do. if it's 12.5 at WOT it's way too rich at idle. If it's nice at idle it's lean up top. I'm up to a -2 POT and 8 UAP. I'm staying under the MAUAP setting. If i keep going with the spread do you think it'll get better?

Now my blend is at 85% which gives me only a 50 MAP. If I lower the blend my MAP goes up...as I accelerate it stays at around fifty unless I really start to open it up. With the big air door (4-2" holes) i would think the MAP would rise a little quicker but it doesn't

Hasn't anyone tuned a radical cammed motor like this for some street use.

I could probably get it to run good with O2 feedback but I'm still trying to get the POT/UAP points set better.

I put a plug in my idle hole, got rid of the erratic idle.

HotrodHans · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:34 am Post subject:

Well, it's not a fuel pressure problem..Rock steady at 52 PSI even at WOT.

Didn't have time to keep playing.

redvictor · founding member Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 21

John,i don't know if you've cured your RFI issues but i have an electric water pump and fan that we had issues with.I ended up getting a an RFI shielded fan from Pacet and i remotely mounted the pump 2 ft away from the crank sensor.
I had the same problems you had until i did that.
Also on your fuel settings the engine likes what it likes.Sometimes that isn't in the range you think it should be,particularly with a big cam....
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HotrodHans · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:36 am Post subject:

Thanks Andy,

Nope, haven't eliminated the RFI yet but also I haven't changed the crank sensor mounting yet as TIMZ suggested. (flip it 90 degrees)

I placed a piece of aluminum sheet between the pump and sensor and that stopped the noise. The sensor is about 2" from the water pump motor. The 140 Amp Powermaster alternator is 4" from it the other way and it seems it isn't any problem at all.
It only affects it when the key is on, water pump on and engine off. Jon says it shouldn't be a problem with the engine running but it does drive me nuts when the fuel pump keeps turning on and off when I'm programming. It also doesn't let you download when it's doing that, kinda locks up.

The remote pump was something I considered but that'll happen with a new aluminum radiator purchase... over the winter. Meziere makes a nice supposedly RFI free pump that mounts right into the radiator tank and then just run one or two discharge hoses out. May try reverse cooling also. Not much room between a Model A radiator and engine.

It would be neat to run the sensor off of the starter ring gear, nothing back there to interfere with noise.

I'll keep plugging in the fuel numbers and you're probably right about it wants what it wants. Seems to be getting better but I had to take fuel out (5%) at the idle/lo speed area in the VE.

A friend of mine is renting the track on the 3rd of OCT so I better get my stuff in gear so I can go test and tune. Hopefully I'll get her dialed in that day.

Thanks for your input and good luck with your super neat Vauxhall.

John