Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 56 Location: West Chicago, IL
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject:
SixPak,
Good name, that's not a stupid question, I was in bed last night thinking of doing that today. Why? My thoughts were a possible venturi effect at WOT as the pickup point for the MAP is a half inch below the rear throttle blades right in the center of the runners. The angle of the blades could be causing a problem and the reversion from the camshaft contributing to it. I was thinking of increasing the plenum volume also to possibly help smooth out that MAP signal.
I've got a port at the front of the air door. I'll try that first then add the spacer. After that??????
Put back the standard water pump to see if it's RFI.
thanks for your input.
Today when I make a test run I hope not to barrel down the rear of an unmarked State Trooper like yesterday.
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 56 Location: West Chicago, IL
Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject:
OKAY..Saturdays update.
I've exhausted about everything.
Changed MAP sensor to air door base per SixPak...... no change
New hose for Map per Jon at EMI, checked it again with a vacuum pump..checked good...no leakage.
Changed to resistor plugs.....no change..using Accel 300 wires which seem to work good but they are a few years old...but they work great with the carb.
Disconnected water pump...No apparent RFI problem but that doesn't eliminate the alternator....no change.
Filtered MAP to 2 setting....no change
Tried -2/8 setting as JON at EMI asked................. went leaner, but I was still using the blend as programmed. 85% till 3500, but that rules out anything above that where the leanness is.
Tried 0/5 as Pantera asked went leaner although added fuel in the upper area.... rich at cruise.
Seems the best I got (it helps to be the tester...lol) was around my original setting of -1.6/7.8 with 4% VE enrichment although no better than 14 AFR at WOT.
This is where the car ran 10.28@128 with the wheels up... but fell on it's face 100 feet out, but I had to shift to 2nd in there to keep it from going up....OOOMMMPH....but 14.5 AFR all the way down the track...I was very nervous....as I melted a motor once with this setup.
It ran a best of 9.50's at 139 on an 850 Carb with the TEC as is programmed now with the injectors disconnected. Same everthing except the original 02 was hooked up to the stock narrowband which was worthless.
Checking the plugs they are white-white, nothing on the ground strap but some soot on the plug base. L E A NNNN.
Now i can see 10's and 11's at acceleration....but WOT....
OK, I guess now I hook up da WB-O2 PLX unit to the TEC. , Can't EMI just have a plug and play WB?
NOW..on the data log...as my rpms' climb...the Inj duty cycles drops....WHY?
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 14 Location: Carlisle OHIO
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:09 am Post subject:
I think your using a TEC 3r? Anyway, i just came back from a race over the weekend. FIRST race with the new TEC GT. Car drove great but would not come up on the brake. I had chosen the wrong firing for the injectors. I chose 6 cyl-4 stroke-sequential-staged INSTEAD of 6 cyl-4 stroke-phased/staged. While in sequential staged I raised my TOG which was 8.5 [in my old TEC 1 IOT was 0 and TOG was 8.5] or so to 12 and it came up on the brake higher. Car was way to lean in this mode. Is it possible that you have chosen the wrong inj firing? How are the coil packs wired and the inj drivers wired? Just a thought.
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 56 Location: West Chicago, IL
Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:
SIXPAK,
I'm on phased/stage but that was a good point. I tried using only the front 2 barrels thinking maybe the 1600 CFM was too much
but no help.
Wiring seems to be OK. Checked twice.
Put a shield around the sensor, starts fine now and uploads without a hitch.
Found out my 1.5 ratio rockers I'm breaking recently (fatigue I'm guessing as they're a few years old) are actually 1.6's.
So, I'm putzin' around with a .707 lift SB...yeahhhh!
Put on new Rockers...took it for an 80 mile ride..ran fine...but still no WOT richness.
I tried using 02 feedback in the learn mode...didn't help at WOT but then I wasn't in the range long enuf for it to calculate proper AF. Cruisin' worked OK.
J O N .. if you're reading this and you still have my s.19/bin file, is there anything you see that may be set wrong?
I was just about to send you an email last night to see how things were going. Have you tried to use one of the AD inputs for a fuel trim? You could technically add 100% fuel over your UAP to test with. I know it would run very rich at idle and cruise but just to see whether you can fatten it up to the desired point up there.
Hans,the lean at WOT is bugging me.What fuel pump have you got? Line size? I know you say it stays at 52psi but i've seen fuel pumps keep pressure while supplying hardly any fuel.
Have you tried just richening up the VE table in the upper rpm's until it goes rich? What is the percentage you have now at upper rpm?
You say the duty cycle goes haywire.Is this still the case?
This really sounds like either a fuel pump or injector issue.
One more thing.Have you checked that the TEC is seeing full throttle? _________________ worlds quickest and fastest street legal pump gas car
7.66 @ 191mph
7.41 @ 197mph with Q16 and ET streets after 5 passes..
Hans,the lean at WOT is bugging me.What fuel pump have you got? Line size? I know you say it stays at 52psi but i've seen fuel pumps keep pressure while supplying hardly any fuel.
Have you tried just richening up the VE table in the upper rpm's until it goes rich? What is the percentage you have now at upper rpm?
You say the duty cycle goes haywire.Is this still the case?
This really sounds like either a fuel pump or injector issue.
One more thing.Have you checked that the TEC is seeing full throttle?
_________________
Hey Red,
Fuel comes from a Bosch 800HP pump that splits and feeds straight to both rails then out of the rails into an Aeromotive regulator so the 50 psi is real.
Whatever the engine doesn't use gets returned. I even run my carbs this way.
I've gone everywhere from 4% to 50% on the VE table, stays at 14. It acts like there isn't enuf fuel though like you'd think.
The duty cycle starts high (70%) at the moment of stabbing the throttle then slowly drops off as the RPM's climb (goes lean)
I tried 85% Blend all the way to 7000, same thing. I even disconnected the rear two barrels just to see what happens...same thing.
I can run a 10 UAP and run fatter'n hell, like 10 but when i get on it, it leans out to 14.
TPS voltage goes from idle of 1.35 to 4.47 roughly. You can see a steady 4.47 at WOT but the duty cycles drops off as the rpms climb.
The duty cycle isn't following the RPM's....actually it's in reverse almost.
???????????????????????????????????????????????/
Last edited by HotrodHans on Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hans,the lean at WOT is bugging me.What fuel pump have you got? Line size? I know you say it stays at 52psi but i've seen fuel pumps keep pressure while supplying hardly any fuel.
Have you tried just richening up the VE table in the upper rpm's until it goes rich? What is the percentage you have now at upper rpm?
You say the duty cycle goes haywire.Is this still the case?
This really sounds like either a fuel pump or injector issue.
One more thing.Have you checked that the TEC is seeing full throttle?
_________________
Hey Red,
Fuel comes from a Bosch 800HP pump that splits and feeds straight to both rails then out of the rails into an Aeromotive regulator so the 50 psi is real.
Whatever the engine doesn't use gets returned. I even run my carbs this way.
I've gone everywhere rom 4% to 50% on the VE table, stays at 14. It acts like there isn't enuf fuel though like you'd think.
The duty cycle starts high (70%) at the moment of stabbing the throttle then slowly drops off as the RPM's climb (goes lean)
I tried 85% Blend all the way to 7000, same thing. I even disconnected the rear two barrels just to see what happens...same thing.
I can run a 10 UAP and run fatter'n hell, like 10 but when i get on it, it leans out to 14.
TPS voltage goes from idle of 1.35 to 4.47 roughly. You can see a steady 4.47 at WOT but the duty cycles drops off as the rpms climb.
The duty cycle isn't following the RPM's....actually it's in reverse almost.
???????????????????????????????????????????????/
In the datalogs I've seen, the duty cycles are acting as programmed - the thing that makes it look weird is that the MAP drops off as revs climb, so your base injector PW from the IOT/UAP drops off accordingly.
I think you've answered this already so forgive me for asking agian, but where in the fuel system is your fuel pressure being monitored? Was it at the FPR, after the rails?
Did you get a chance to check the wideband connection to the TEC? I still would like to see a datalog with the Wideband connected and the big pulsewidth cal I sent. It would be a good exercise to see how abruptly the AFRs drop off. If it drops really quickly, then misfire is likely. If it just kind of trails off, then it's probably really not getting enough fuel. _________________
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
-FZ, Joe's Garage
Hans,the lean at WOT is bugging me.What fuel pump have you got? Line size? I know you say it stays at 52psi but i've seen fuel pumps keep pressure while supplying hardly any fuel.
Have you tried just richening up the VE table in the upper rpm's until it goes rich? What is the percentage you have now at upper rpm?
You say the duty cycle goes haywire.Is this still the case?
This really sounds like either a fuel pump or injector issue.
One more thing.Have you checked that the TEC is seeing full throttle?
_________________
Hey Red,
Fuel comes from a Bosch 800HP pump that splits and feeds straight to both rails then out of the rails into an Aeromotive regulator so the 50 psi is real.
Whatever the engine doesn't use gets returned. I even run my carbs this way.
I've gone everywhere rom 4% to 50% on the VE table, stays at 14. It acts like there isn't enuf fuel though like you'd think.
The duty cycle starts high (70%) at the moment of stabbing the throttle then slowly drops off as the RPM's climb (goes lean)
I tried 85% Blend all the way to 7000, same thing. I even disconnected the rear two barrels just to see what happens...same thing.
I can run a 10 UAP and run fatter'n hell, like 10 but when i get on it, it leans out to 14.
TPS voltage goes from idle of 1.35 to 4.47 roughly. You can see a steady 4.47 at WOT but the duty cycles drops off as the rpms climb.
The duty cycle isn't following the RPM's....actually it's in reverse almost.
???????????????????????????????????????????????/
In the datalogs I've seen, the duty cycles are acting as programmed - the thing that makes it look weird is that the MAP drops off as revs climb, so your base injector PW from the IOT/UAP drops off accordingly.
I think you've answered this already so forgive me for asking agian, but where in the fuel system is your fuel pressure being monitored? Was it at the FPR, after the rails?
Did you get a chance to check the wideband connection to the TEC? I still would like to see a datalog with the Wideband connected and the big pulsewidth cal I sent. It would be a good exercise to see how abruptly the AFRs drop off. If it drops really quickly, then misfire is likely. If it just kind of trails off, then it's probably really not getting enough fuel.
Hi Timz,
I've been trying to get back to that -3-13 POT/UAP yet. Having issues a little with the valvetrain (minor i hope)
The WB is working on my program, I had not calibrated it on your program in my frustration so that's probably why it didn't work.
On the AFR gauge on the dash your 13 UAP went lean at WOT to 16-17 range and real fat (11) everywhere else.
No problem, Gauge is at the inlet (rear) to the rails straight from the pump. #8 line feeds thru the filter to a TEE that splits to both rails. Gauge is on the far rail inlet. Fuel goes thru the rails to 2 # 6 lines that feed into an Aeromotive reg, then out the bottom to the tank.
Here's a link on how it's plumbed with the gauge being at the 'Y' inlet. I could move the gauge to the regulator which may be a better location. I've used two different gauges. I'M LOOKING AT THE DRAWING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, NOT FIG. 1 OR 2.
Probably the best way to get a reading is to run a line from the inlet and outlet of the rails and merge them to a gauge but i don't think my problem is there...at least yet.
Please don't make me go to Kinslers site again as I drool all over my keyboard
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 108 Location: Dearborn, Michigan
Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject:
HotrodHans wrote:
Please don't make me go to Kinslers site again as I drool all over my keyboard
jOHN
Tell me about it - they are only a 20 minute drive or so from me - I've been to their shop. Lots of pretty cool stuff in there.
Also, sorry if I seem to keep harping on it, but are you absolutely sure that the fuel pressure is holding when you go lean? It's really hard to watch the gauge closely in a 600+hp car at WOT . I had a problem with fuel pressure dropping off recently, and the only way that I saw it was that my gauges have a playback function and I was able to see it happen in slow motion after the fact.
We're kind of down to a just few options:
misfire due to being too rich
fuel pressure dropping off at WOT
false MAP reading at WOT
injectors aren't big enough
... so the stuff I keep asking about are centered on process of elimination around these items. _________________
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
-FZ, Joe's Garage
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 56 Location: West Chicago, IL
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:
Quote:
We're kind of down to a just few options:
misfire due to being too rich
fuel pressure dropping off at WOT
false MAP reading at WOT
injectors aren't big enough
... so the stuff I keep asking about are centered on process of elimination around these items.
edit:
Well TimZ,
UMMMM....I'm gonna say maybe #2, FP dropping off at WOT even though I haven't seen it. I checked the gauge I was using that I could see while driving which was an Autometer 100# oil pressure gauge. I compared the response with an Autometer 100# fuelpressure gauge and the oil gauge is dampened quite a bit, so i put on the FP gauge and will try again. It's right in front of my face outside the windshield.
I did the next best thing or maybe even the first best thing...lol. I disconnected the fuel return line on the discharge of the regulator and timed the fuel pump against 40 psi.. In one minute I got 1.1 gals. Should be good for at least 780 HP and more with an efficient engine. Kind of on the edge though I guess....especially if my little motor is over 700 HP....maybe...but also when I'm checking out the AFR it's right around max torque area so it's using max fuel.
Now that's with 12 volts, no engine running. Tried it 4 times.
This Bosch pump (the big one ACCEL #74702 sells also I think) is rated at 870HP at 45 psi, NA. I imagine there is some margin of error. It's probably ok for a carb at 7 psi but not enuf cushion for FI. I didn't check the big inlet filter but it was new a few months ago. #10 in and out. The flow seems close to the advertised specs anyway.
So....
What's a good replacement in line pump..AEROMOTIVE 1000? I've read a lot of good on it.
I'd like to try something simple and quick to install before the snow flies...but I'm gonna check that FP once more first.
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 Posts: 56 Location: West Chicago, IL
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject:
UPDATE.
Took her for a spin and found the FP rock steady...used a NEW Autometer 100# FP gauge this time. Using my Polish dyno technique, I accelerated in second gear riding the brakes enuf to let the car accelerate slowly to get a decent reading. It got as high as 70% inj duty cycle but noticed around 5800 RPM the duty cycle drops to about 50% and the AFR actually went slightly rich. MAP, TPS are steady..WOT. Still in the 14AFR range. I've checked everything I could and nothing in the program that at least I can see would allow this inj duty change at around mid 5000 R's. I did it again with a different VE and it happened around 5600 RPM. One VE setting I had 50% in the top 3 rows and the other had 10%. didn't seem to make much difference. It's almost like I've got something set that switches something on or off but I can't see what. I've set the blend to 90% which it likes and tried 100% all the way to 7000 using TPS only..no help.
I wish there was away to post DATA logs here but you need to send and download the bin and s19 files with it to make it work it seems. I ain't a computer Wiz.
Gotta go fix the squeeking brakes now...musta glazed 'em.
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I accelerated in second gear riding the brakes enuf to let the car accelerate slowly to get a decent reading. It got as high as 70% inj duty cycle but noticed around 5800 RPM the duty cycle drops to about 50% and the AFR actually went slightly rich. MAP, TPS are steady..WOT. Still in the 14AFR range. I've checked everything I could and nothing in the program that at least I can see would allow this inj duty change at around mid 5000 R's. I did it again with a different VE and it happened around 5600 RPM. One VE setting I had 50% in the top 3 rows and the other had 10%. didn't seem to make much difference. It's almost like I've got something set that switches something on or off but I can't see what. I've set the blend to 90% which it likes and tried 100% all the way to 7000 using TPS only..no help.