Noob TEC troubles

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

I got my Z to run on the TECgt, and I've been playing around with it for a week. I'm having the following issues.

-The instructions for WinTec are incredibly hard to follow. I've managed to get it to idle very smoothly, other than that, I am completely lost.

-No changes I make seem to have any effect. I save with CTRL+S and Program when necessary. Sometimes when the car sits for awhile the change will go through. Confused

I am stuck idling at 11.3 on my wideband gauge and I can't make it move.

-I keep seeing "CONNECTING" every so often in the bottom right. Should it be doing that? I thought it may be a bad serial cable connection so I tried jiggleing it but it seems to come and go at random.

-"WinTec4 Failure" ???

-"GPO4 intermittent failure" This GPO is disabled, the wire is taped up.

-I cannot get GPO8 to work. I have it set as a shift light. I get 500ohms to ground at all times. The dash shows it activating, but I get no continuity to ground.

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

You probably have an old manual. That is why the GPO doesn't seem to be working. When we switched to 4.5.x the GPO's all moved up one. So you have GPO8 selected in the software, but it's acutally working the pin that's labeled GPO7 in the manual. Try moving the wire there and see if you shift light starts working. We'll be posting a new manual with the new software. Systems sold since the new 4.5 software was release already include the new manual.

The slow communication is a little strange. But I have seen it happen. On some laptops, for whatever reason, the system can't (won't?) keep up with the communication requests. It could also be the USB to serial adapter that is falling behind. One way to address this is to go into Tools->Options->Monitoring and change the slider at the bottom to about 10. This actually slows down data monitoring requests and makes it easier for the system to keep up. So the response to ONFLY changes gets a bit more immediate. This will also probably address the CONNECTING message you keep getting.

The error message you're getting is a known issue with the software, we'll be releasing a new WinTEC in the next week that addresses the problem. In the mean time, you can just ignore it. There isn't really a problem.

As for getting the car to run better, TOG and IOT are your best friends. Adjust IOT until the car idles nicely (you may already be at this point), then adjust TOG until it will rev through the range. Adjust the acceration enrichments to get rid of bogging and hesitation. Once your at this point you can go to the dyno, or start driving and datalogging to get he VE table dialed in. Until you get to this point, keep the VE table zeroed out.
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

Ok, everything worked except I am still at 10.3. I tried adjusting TOG, IOT, and the lower left VE. The only thing that is different now is that my clothes and house smell, and I feel light headed.

I don't currently have an o2 hooked up to the unit if that matters. Just the gauge.

When I roll on the throttle I see TOG change on the dash as per my adjustment. It's as if it's very hard to get anything to go through to the unit. I am using the serial cable that came with it, no USB.

OB1JZA70 · Newly Aquired Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 2

You might want to try dropping the fuel emrichments for the cold start down to correct the 11.3 a/f problem.

Orin B Sr
boost junkie
"In Boost we Thrust!"

OB1JZA70 · Newly Aquired Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 2

You might want to try dropping the fuel emrichments for the cold start down to correct the 11.3 a/f problem.

Orin B Sr
boost junkie
"In Boost we Thrust!"

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

Ok, I'm going to need to see some numbers to of any more help.

TOG (currently)?
IOT (currently)?
Minimum on time?
Injector size?
Number of Injectors?
Expected Horsepower?
Phased or Sequential?
Turbo? How much boost?
MAP sensor BAR?
Rev limit?
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

TOG (currently)? 5ms
IOT (currently)? -13ms
Minimum on time? 1.5ms
Injector size?
I can't find what I entered for this, but "injector mode" is 56. I believe I entered 53.
Number of Injectors? 6
Expected Horsepower? 350
Phased or Sequential? Phased
Turbo? How much boost? 16psi
MAP sensor BAR? 3bar
Rev limit? 7000

Additionally, I have no O2 sensor hooked up to it at the moment. Does this matter?

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

The fact that your O2 is not connected to the unit is not a problem.

Ok, I'm not entirely sure what the system is going to do with an IOT that is more negative than the TOG is positive. The equation the unit uses to calculate the pulsewidth is:
(MAPv / 5) * TOG + IOT

This value is used for GAMA 100%. The adjustments from the warmup, starting, accleration, etc are added to GAMA. The resulting GAMA value is multiplied by the pulsewidth from above.

So if the resulting GAMA is 137%, and the pulsewidth above is 3.2ms, the result will be like this:

137% * 3.2 = 4.384ms
This is the final pulsewidth.

Try this, set IOT to 0 and zero out your VE table. Then do the following calculations:

(Injector size * number of injectors) / BSFC

So, to fit your example, if you have 6, 52lb/hr injectors with a turbocharger you would use (I can explain where the BSFC value comes from in another post if you like):

(52 * 6) / .55 = 567.27 horsepower max

This is the max horsepower your injectors can support at 100% dutycycle. Multiply by .8 to get the max horsepower for 80%. On a side note, Injector mode is really only for diagnostic purposes, I need to know how much fuel flow your injectors support. Preferably in lbs/hr or cc/min. (you can get lbs/hr by dividing cc/min by 10.51)

The next step:

Expected HP / Max HP at 100%

So: 350 / 527.27 = .663 or 66.3%

This gives you the max dutycycle you will need to make your max expected output. 66% is pretty low. If you actually have smaller injectors you will need to redo these calcs with the proper value.

The peak horsepower is the point at which you will see your highest DUTYCYCLE. Since we may not know at what RPM the peak horsepower will be, we'll use your max RPM as the worst case scenario.

(60 / MAX RPM) * 1000 gives us milliseconds per revolution.
Multiply that by 2 to get milliseconds per cycle. Time per revolution is used for phased injection, time per cycle is used for sequential.

So: (60 / 7000) * 1000 = 8.57ms

This means that if you have a pulsewidth of 8.57ms, you will have a dutycycle of 100%. But we don't want a dutycycle of 100%, we want a max dutycycle of 66.3% (from above).

To get the pulsewidth that is equivalent of a 66.3% dutycycle, do this:

Desired dutycycle * time per rev/cycle

So: .663 * 8.57 = 5.68ms

If you were using all of the range of your MAP sensor, this would the end. You would use that value as your TOG. But, you are not using the whole range. You have a 3 bar sensor, and you are using about 2.1bar of the total range. This gives you the final TOG:

(MAP range / MAP max) * Desired pulsewidth

So: (3 BAR / 2.1 BAR) * 5.68 = 8.11ms

Now, once again, if your injectors are not the same size as I used in these calculations, you will need to redo them with the correct flow size.

This a a pretty long post and has a lot of explaination in it, but the reality is these calculations take about 2 mins. Armed with the right TOG, the instructions from my first post in this thread will make much more sense, and the process will be much simpler.

Now, the real kicker: The new file wizard does this calculation for you. Fill in all the blanks on that page (you can obviously skip the TOG and IOT until the calculation is done, and be sure to press enter on each field. Once you have all the values in, the required minimum injector size will appear. Replace this with your actual injector size and press enter. Once you have entered you injector size, the calculated TOG will appear in box at the bottom of the screen. Copy that value to the TOG box near the top and start with an IOT of 0. The minimum on time you're using is a good starting point.
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

My boost gauge is reading 18 in/hg.
The dash is displaying 39.2 kpa.
Mad

Hmmm.

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

Is that Absolute or gauge pressure? If it's gauge pressure (so it's showing 18in vaccuum), you're at 11.9 in/Hg absolute and that's equivalent to 40.3 kPa absolute. That doesn't seem so wrong to me.
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

Ah, OK, I forgot all about that.

One thing I noticed is the bottom of the pw field where I am idling is all in red saying my injectors are too big. I have no idle controls.

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

All the red means is that your below the minimum on-time in those fields. It's not going to hurt anything, but it may idle a bit rich. What size are your injectors? My calculations (based on the info you've already given me is that 45lbs/hr is all you need. If you have bigger than that, you may have some trouble with idle. That could probably be solved by switching to sequential. But I think we'll worry more about getting the car to run a little closer on the whole and then worry about refinement. Do you plan to take this to a dyno and have someone tune it, or are you going to tune it yourself (with or without a dyno)?

By no idle controls, do you mean that you are not using an IAC, or you're just not able to mess with the fuel at idle? Once you get a TOG value that's more correct, at least part of that problem should be cleared up.
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

My injectors are 550cc. They ran fine with the Microtech (sequential) that was previously on this car. The initial calibrations for that unit were a breeze, so when I couldn't dial in my AFR at Idle on the TEC, I freaked out and concentrated on that. That is why my IOT was at -13 in a vain attempt at leaning this thing out. It smells horrific. When none of the things I tried leaned it out any further, it caused me to believe I was having communication issues.

I can get the car to idle well and rev through smoothly with the TOG and IOT settings, but can't get AFR at idle higher than 11.4 with a MIT of 1.25.

**Jon@EMI** · EMI Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 144 Location: Manassas, VA

That may be the case. You are running phased, so 1.25ms pulsewidth now is delivering twice the fuel as the microtech running sequential. Switching to sequential is an option, but that can be done at anytime. All you have to do is change the wiring to the injectors switch to sequitial and double your TOG. No need to change the VE table or anything. Cam sync is optional but recommended. All of the injectors will fire anyway, they may just be out of sync. That's not a huge deal unless you're trying to pass emissions. If you opt for no cam sync, you'll want to disconnect your check engine light because it will be on all the time.
_________________
Jon
Project Engineer
Electromotive, Inc
jon at emi.cc
www.distributorless.com

Crab Spirits · Newly Aquired Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 12

Can I still go sequential with these low impedance injectors? How does it know which is TDCC and TDCO without the cam sensor? Does it just guess?

I was also thinking about getting an adjustable FPR and try leaning it out that way. Mad