Joined: 18 Jul 2008 Posts: 11 Location: South Africa
Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Electromotive - how does it compare - experience outlined
Hi all,
For those who dont know me, my name is Chris, I own a company called TurboDirect S.A we are the Electromotive distributors for South Africa. I would like to share an open and unbiased experience with the Electromotive product with you all - this outline is going to be a long one, but very informative, and full of information that you can use. Firstly some background -- I have been installing and tuning electronic engine management systems since around 1998 - i have had the opportunity to install and tune the following systems over time:-
Electromotive Tec GT
Haltech
Motec M4 clubman
Link
Perfect Power SMT5, 6, I-chip, MIC3, XMS4, 6,8
Go-tech Pro
Dictator
Mr Turbo
EFI
Domingos
To name but a few. --- to give you an idea of typically what an installer aswell as a tuner faces when working with this type of product, i will share one or two experiences with you. Electromotive, Motec, Haltech and Link are all imported systems and are consiered to be advanced and world class which they are. The other units in the list above are locally made systems, however they are marketed along side the Motec, Haltech and Link systems .... There is no way that the local systems are anywhere remotely comparable to the first 4!! anyway.....
My first project was a VW 1.8 CTI (ran stock K-jet injection) which i turbocharged with a Mitsubishi TD04 and used the Domingos system in 1999, this was the only system available at the time in S.A -- it was said that it was a copy of the Haltech - that was false! But the system fueled and controlled ignition to standards that we accepted at those times. The product was extremely difficult to install, setup in the S/ware and tune. Compensation maps were crude and not enough settings to get the engine to run properly. E.G achieve a stable idle, and as soon as you are at 5% throttle in a gear, you get the bucking bronco effect ... add a little more fuel at this point, and the idle is messed up again (no extrapolation) ... im sure you get the picture. But we accepted this as par for the course... little did we know!
At my shop we turbocharged and tuned cars for customers on a daily basis - out of all the systems I have installed at that point, i preferred the SMT5, SMT6 piggy back systems from perfect power because of the fact that there was no cold start maps, compensation maps to create and play with , and setup idle control, and voltage correction for MAF sensors, etc. It was simple, as the turbo came onto boost, add some fuel!! Where boost was over 0.8bar, pull back some timing.... simple, quick and easy to install - maintaining the stock compensation, idle and other engine parameters. 5 - 7 wires to splice and connect into the stock harness -- What a pleasure. This obviously does not always work for all circumstances!
I installed a Motec M4 Clubman into an Opel Superboss (2.0 16V) which we turbocharged -- this was an absolute nightmare! Wiring was extremely difficult, the diagrams were misleading, and the software was ....'horrible' !! Dos based interface with table after table and each adjustment in one table affected the next table --- eventually had to seek help from Pete Swinney at Motec in AUS and took days which led to weeks to get the car started, and then tuning started shortly after that. ALL values had to be entered from the cold start values, compensation maps, throttle responce values, idle control, Batt voltage, MAT temp, MAF/MAP values etc. One morning the car would start easily and idle ok, the next day the outside temperature was different and the car wouldnt start, or would idle rough/rich, just too many settings on regular occasions to get the car sorted out. As a tuner, this costs time and money, let alone loses face with the customer! This type of system was very advanced, and not simplified at all -- many of the local race teas use MOTEC M800 units and 4 of the teams i have spoken with have all told me that they need track side support from the MOTEC agents here as the tuning software is too difficult to navigate and use....
Dictator - installed into a van with a Lexus V8 cut out engine installed --- the configuration of the coils on this motor are 2 distribution blocks with 4 coil wires on each feeding 2 seperate coil packs for each bank of cylinders. For the Dictator system, this was impossible to control ... we eventually had to get two dictator units with add on modules to cope with the odd arrangement of ignition coils etc .... the customer was adamant that he wanted dictator - eventually this landed up costing alot of time and money and the engine never ran the way it should have - the customer sold the vehicle shortly after that.
A Personal Friend of mine turbocharged his VW Gold MK1 with the 2.0 16V VW engine -- we installed a Go-tech pro system into the car, in a wasted spark configuration (single coil per cylinder) - this excersice cost R12800.00 ($1600.00) Keep this in mind for now. OK we installed the wiring - simple as pie. Then came the software setup -- windows based interface, easy to navgate, BUT once again every single value from scratch had to be inserted for every engine condition, compensation, state of tune, dwell time, etc. The RPM was being seen as half the actual RPM, and an adjustment had to be made to the unit itself in order to sort this out. After this was sorted out, the long and tedious process of tuning began. It took us 3 weeks of constant changing and adjusting and playing with settings to get this everyday road going car to run to the customers satusfaction.
This next table will give you an idea of the costs of the popular local systems - based on these costs, you decide whether or not these systems are actually world class products: Just think about the R&D costs and time investment you need to have a rock solid reliable product, and then decide whether or not this effort and time was invested into the deveopment of these systems.
Go-tech Pro -- R3648.00 ECU ONLY == $456.00
Dictator -- R2100.00 ECU ONLY == $262.50
Mr Turbo - R1800.00 ECU ONLY == $225.00
All of these systems have inherent problems, and the number of DIYers and tuners that have problems with these systems is high, it seems that these systems are released into the market and then the bugs are ironed out as and when they are experienced- much like Microsoft products.... The components inside some of these systems are PIC IC's and not even processor units. The technology used to design and build these systems are antiquated and cheap. The perception by the public here is that there is a market for the cheap stuff that works -- and then there is a market for the expensive stuff that also works. The problem is the following:-
I wont mention the name of the manufacturer or product, but this is what happened to me personally and a number of my customers with most of the above local systems - I installed a local ECU into my Tiburon which was turbocharged. The system was 'advanced' enough to calibrate to the stock manufacturers pickup hardware -- after installation, and tedius initial setup of the start up values etc -- we decided to dyno the vehicle - on the dyno we makde relatively good numbers, and thereafter took it out on the road for fine tuning. Since this was my every day car, i wanted good consumption figures aswell as sharp throttle responce. We made adjustments to the ignition timing, no result. More advance, still no change. ... still more advance - no change we were sitting at 0.5bar boost (7psi) with 22 degrees of advance -- POOOF SMOKE out the rear - destroyed piston landings!!! You can imagine the language that came out my mouth at that point -- cut a long story short - rebuilt the engine, started it up with the same ECU with the same settings, and put a timing light on it whilst on the dyno --- the ECU showed 22 degrees advance, and the actual advance was 38 degrees!!
With every single unit listed in the above list, i have personally experienced a timing mismatch EXCEPT the Electromotive product. Heres the Electromotive install story from last week. some background:-
The car:- Renault Megane RS 2.0 16V turbo -- T-class production race car
The owner:- Andre Van Der Merwe
Since November 2007 till last week -- this car has visited a total of 6 local tuners including one of south africa's 'top tuning' companies (no names) and had 2 engines blown on the dyno.!!! The system installed :--> Autronic. I was referred to Andre by the Mazda Motorsport team - we discussed the car, and i drove out to look at the car with my partner. We decided that the Electromotive TEC GT was the best route forward. The car was running the AIM digital dash, and required compatibility with whatever ECU we chose to use. After checkin with Uwe at Electromotive, this was confirmed and double checked on the AIM web site.
Uwe sent across a Tec GT with DFU4, Map sensor, MAT sensor, Coolant Sensor, Crank trigger sensor and we got installing. It took us two days and the unit was installed and ready to start. While we were waiting for the shipment to arrive, i familiarized myself with the Wintec 4 software, and had already created the bin file for the engine. I saved it one side and decided to create a new bin file once the wiring was complete. Heres exactly what happened.
1) Installed wiring
2) Double checked wiring and sensor functionality
3) Created new Bin file
4) Started the engine!
Its as simple as that. The time it took us from creating the Bin file to starting the engine was 15 seconds! I could not believe it myslef! I decided to take the car out onto the road and play with a few settings before the dyno the next day, without touching a value in any table, the car was able to drive, obviously not smooth when boost came in, but it drove. It was spluttering and popping and backfiring ALOT -- i thought it was software settings, but after looking a little further into it, i noticed that the DFU coils were too strong for the plug wire boots! The spark was shooting through the plug boot on the plug and arching against the head!!! DO NOT TAKE A CHANCE WITH THESE COILS!! We replaced the boots with thicker ones and the problem was solved.
At the dyno the next day it tok us 30minutes and the car was tuned! We made very impressive figures and the car was totally manageable on the road and has good fuel consumption .... for a race car! The most important thing for me as an installer and tuner of these systems is that the wiring is easy to understand and work with, the software is just as friendly, and the accuracy of the maps that Wintec 4 create for you is no less than 85% there! More importantly i checked the timing in Wintec versus the timing light, and the timing was IDENTICAL! 36.2 degrees advance at that point read exactly the same on the light! I had data logging tables done at idle, which i will share with you, and you will see an idle RPM that did not change by more than 10 rpm at any point -- never before have i experienced ignition accuracy to this extent!
I have uploaded my BIN file for you to look at -- take special note of the VE table -- have a look at the adjustments we made in this table - they are VERY SMALL, the Wntec software was only slightly out! I used the GPO to control the fan -- it worked first time, no hassles at all. Nothing else was changed in terms of cold start, enrichments, warm up etc. Only the VE table was adjusted. Pictures of the car attached hereunder aswell.
In closing, well done to the team at Electromotive, this product in my opinion is untouchable!! If you want a quality product with top class support, friendly service and the most rock solid interface, functionality and operation - trouble free --- there is only one choice -- Electromotive!
After messing about with a DTA E48 ECU for the last two years I have a car that although functioning is not running nearly as well as a stock unit would and my frustrations have led me to the Electromotive brand. I currently have a techGT on order and expect to have very few issues. The E48 will be in the FS section of their forum shortly.
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 Posts: 11 Location: South Africa
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:37 am Post subject:
Tommyboyee -- i can assure you that your exprience with the TEC GT ECU is not going to be nearly as frustrating or as difficult to use as the DTA setup. While your order is being shipped/delivered, do your self a favour and read the manual, and familiarise yourself with the way the Electromotive systems work (IOT, TOG etc)
Provided your wiring is spot on, and your sensors/trigger pickup and all related components are spot on, the only deciding factor as to how accurate the WINTEC settings will be is your input into the BIN creation screen. The more accurate these settings are to actual -- the more accurate your initial map will be that Wintec creates - ence less adjustments you will need to do in the VE and ignition tables etc.
It took me a month to familiarize myself with the DTA software before I was confident that I could make changes without damaging effects. I have done exactly what you said and downloaded/printed the manual and software guide. I'm already happy with the differences I can see. Just in the software!! One thing that I was impressed with was voltage compensation. I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is when I turned on the headlights and my fuel ratio changed. I have numerous maps on my pc for different applications. Day/night, Hot hazy humid weather vs. cool weather. etc. The DTA E48 is definitely not a streetable ECU.
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 Posts: 11 Location: South Africa
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject:
Tommybyee, in my opinion you have done the right thing, just keep in mind that once your IOT and TOG are setup accurately, you wont be needing to touch many of the compensation map settings much. To give you an idea, the weather here is South Africa at the moment ranges from -2 celcius in the morning, and gets up to 20 - 25 celcius during the day (is winter here at the moment) and the car starts perfectly with the WINTEC settings preprogrammed - i have not touched any of these.
I'm certain you will have alot of pleasure using the TEC units!! Keep us posted as to your progress.
Well the TechGT is in and if all goes well in the shop we will be intsalling it next week. He's a bit busy so I'm not holding my breath for Monday. It will be nice not to have to tune the car every time I want to drive it. Though I am a bit anal about these things and will attempt to get everything spot on.
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